A friend and scholar of John of the Cross had sent via email an in-depth dissertation on aspects of mystic and mysticism, factors featuring John of the Cross and with review of scholarly, published writings therein. I'd written awhile ago of someone leaving a comment with what proved to be in error regarding John of the Cross and mystics in general. The friend then sent the published dissertation of which I finished reading about the same time as I concluded what amounts to my writings on what is a mystic and what is a contemplative, and what amounts to be a confusion and interchanging of terms or labels. Perhaps this correspondence repeats what I've already shared, but it also includes some information garnered from having read the dissertation; the dissertation helped me personally to realize I'm not interested in the labels or debate as my heart, mind, and soul are led by God to something more intriguing and worthwhile of His Real Presence of which I know not and might not know, but will experience in His Real Presence and in my otherwise typical, everyday life--alive or dead as one never knows the day nor the hour....
Dear E,
I read plus at times muddled through (sinus infection still part of my temporal experience!) Payne's published dissertation. He covered quite a bit, including his chapter on the research. I learned some aspects of John of the Cross, more details that filled in some wonderings I had, which I appreciate very much knowing as it helps to understand all the more his courage, plus his and Theresa's expected and temporal necessity to express some things in keeping with what the hierarchy of the temporal Church would approve. And what difference, in a way, does it make for God understands why, especially when they were so consumed and subsumed in His Real Presence and striving in excellence of His Law of Love? The temporal then truly passes away even if it appears to be the temporal reality. That it is, but it does not compare to the spiritual reality of His Real Presence who fulfills the law, thus no need to abolish it when God has fulfilled and is fulfilling it in effect perpetually.
Anyway, the reading became laborious only because I'm old, no doubt, but also because the scholarly is probably behind me and of not much help as it seems my main task is to learn to love to love, as God loves. In loving as God loves, to with His Real Presence fulfill the Law of God, the Law of Love, then supersedes the temporal laws, for if I love as God loves, I will l keep to the traffic laws out of love of neighbor and community, as well as self who does not want injuries, either, nor temporal hassles! I will pay my taxes willingly for the good of the common cause, including paying the salaries of politicians regardless of their job performances, for I love God above all else, and love others as God loves--so I love their souls and desire their salvation as also my own, and the temporal tends thus to pass away in the Light of His Love at a deep and high level. You get it.
However what I have discovered with Payne's writing, also, and perhaps B does this (another scholar with whom I've briefly corresponded for awhile but never met), as it seems many tend to do--and perhaps my experience is simply otherwise--but people confuse and/or interpolate mysticism with contemplation and mystic with contemplative. Person online has again taken issue with what I wrote of my studies on mystics and mystcism and my personal existence as a mystic. I realize it certainly does not matter, but the person continues to write as if in an official capacity based upon having been approved by a former bishop via the temporal canon law (which was pushed through in 1983 by a late bishop whose track record has mixed reviews of his vocational performance). Other than perhaps a bit of self-promotion as an authority, having differing views on other topics, the person is a very intelligent, erudite writer.
I wasted time yesterday in attempt to clarify and repeat what has been my experience, and the author of the 1950's (Dr. David Knowles) who was a Cambridge professor and scholar of mysticism and mystics has what I consider written in the closest reality of what has been my lived experience. He makes clear the distinction between contemplation and mysticism and mystics and contemplatives. All can become contemplatives, but mystics are born as mystics; people in general, cannot thus "become" mystics.
And while it really does not matter in the full spectrum of life, what the person is writing and purporting seems false hope to those who want to be a mystic--foolish as that may seem, for it is so much suffering and not the glory or attention or acceptance that people think it is. They know from reading or hearing of the mystics who were made by humankind into canonized saints and heralded with stories of fantastical mystical experiences, unusual phenomenon, or special gifts that to some seem quite desirable and in a way, powerful. Plus, they think theses persons labeled mystics are a type of super-human superpowers, reading the future, reading souls, healing and driving out demons, in ecstasy, levitating, and doing great and wondrous works for humanity and the world. Or that they will have the stigmata and people will flock to them for spiritual consultation and to hang on their very words, and they will write great books of supernatural wisdom, and have messages from God that the temporal Church hierarchy will proclaim to the world--perhaps be given some new devotion to start, or have visits from the Virgin Mary and Jesus or other saints, converse with them. Whatever people may or may not think, it seems that being a mystic and having mystical experiences is a sought after trend of our times, much as people were abuzz about it in Spain when Theresa and John were on earth.
Perhaps the above considerations are what might motivate some to want to be mystics, and this person and others, even a priest or more, well known, who have suggested that people can "become" mystics and to strive for that--well, in my lived experience it is not how it is. I know that we humans can dispose ourselves to God and do certain things, make certain choices in our temporal lives that will prepare us and open us to deeper and richer prayer, to aspire to avail ourselves of what has been termed the Three Ways of the Spiritual Life. This is all well and good, but striving to live God's law of Love would bring us to that and further--I realize now, nearly 71. It is love that matters, and learning to love and loving as God loves that helps us be bit by bit perfected by His Real Presence, to increasingly be subsumed into Him, progressively deeper, for all else diminishes usually slowly but on occasion in fell swoops (nor fast in my experience),
I have never asked of God anything, so I guess am passive receptor. I eschew doing exercises or techniques, for I figure God will do with me as He wills, and I don't mind my errors as I'm human, and take earth time given me--to learn. I essentially just wasted 16 years not understanding He meant it when I was led to the stairway to heaven, and in temporal church life situationally was rejected repeatedly in outright words and actions by bishops, priests, and parishioners, then blocked in other ways physically, and in different places. I was slow to accept God meant it that my time in temporal church was over, and He meant it when He asked me why would I want THAT when I could have HIM now, directly? And in that vision, it was so clear and with no doubt what I wanted, of course! It was what--a rhetorical question, God asked me?
But I realized when reading Payne's discussion of the mysticism topic, with his interchanging "mystic" and "contemplative" and sometimes also "spiritual"--that none of all that matters, not to me anyway. I cannot and don't need to try to clarify for others, especially not the person who for years disagrees, misquotes, misrepresents often of what I write. So what? And I concluded that the person and others can call themselves mystics and do whatever they want to become a mystic, for whatever reasons including wanting to experience what it is like to have an ecstasy. Theresa of Avila pointed out that it is hard on the body physiologically, and I agree, but God is in charge of the numinous. (A man I know once told me that at first he was envious and bothered by me because he wanted to experience that with God, but then he saw how horribly I was treated and the suffering otherwise involved of my life, he realized he was content that this was not his path).
Those who want to be and think they can become mystics can do whatever they want, but shy of making a pact with the devil or having psychological or emotional disturbances, false experiences, it won't happen. Padre Pio did nothing to bring on his mystic existence; John of the Cross nor Teresa did nothing to bring on being mystics. However, they like anyone who has a mind capable of cognition can consciously do things that spiritual writers have suggested, such as Teresa and John, to focus their wills, their souls, their hearts and minds, and avail themselves increasingly to God--which in effect is simply to begin to and progress in loving God above all else, and to love others and self as God loves--in particular our souls. Some of our actions please God, but it seems that is not the sum total of why He loves us and came as Man God to fulfill His Law. He willed to provide for our salvation if we but love Him, believe in Him, and follow Him.
Does this seem correct?
As to "mystic", I consider it being born with an affliction; but those who do not understand that affliction is not negative in God's realm but a suffering that is opportunity and reparative and unifying with Christ [although I do complain a lot being not far along it seems in the spiritual life--a stuck human?] will not grasp the reality of this or of other afflictions of which some are born and live with through temporal life. However, it seems that other afflictions receive medical, scientific, and various other supports and helps, and seem to be receiving an increasing understanding and compassion by humanity at large; but mystics are still not understood and are persecuted mostly from within the temporal Church hierarchy from priest on up and the parishioners. That is, unless God wills that their missions include utilization at diocese or religious order levels--with spiritual gifts that are desired, and outwardly "prove" or "justify" their usefulness. Even that seems so humanly mercenary! Ha ha ha. But we are human, and yet even those with the gift of healing--God chooses who is and who is not healed. Nothing of a mystic is of the mystic's doing or under his or her purview. All is of God.
And mystics desire and grow in the way of contemplation, although some are adept early on and cooperate with His Real Presence quickly and in full measure. This is true, as well, of many who are not mystics; they seem as if pre-disposed to God! And then, we can consider that contemplation and the highest label of unitive state is not necessary, not required, in order to be subsumed into His Real Presence. Consider those who are quite simple, uneducated, have afflictions of which we consider them to be incompetent or unaware of much, lack "functional," cognitive skills. They may be experiencing union with God at times or nearly always without any outer signs, or at least not that we humans recognize--for perhaps we are looking for the fantastical?
I've realized it is foolishness for me to try to clarify or even write of such matters. The more I read through Payne's scholarly and outstanding dissertation, the more I felt sickened and weary, disinterested in all that, for I don't care about that stuff. Or maybe it is that I more care about learning to love as God loves. I'd rather notice the evidence of His Real Pesence in every day life--such as in the pup Mercy or in some interchange of temporal interaction or in solitude, or otherwise. I'm tired of my body and temporal hassles, of having to live somewhere, of needing to eat food, but I am going through the "motions" for I must.
But what captivates is practicing God's law of Love and catching myself when I am off that desire or goal. I catch myself increasingly now, have awareness, when I have not loved as God loves or have gone contrary to His Law of Love. I seem somehow, inexplicably closer in His Real Presence; I can be carried off from this world when I watch a good film that reminds me of those needing prayer or the triumph of others who have turned to God Is Love, even if it is not presented as such, as "religious," by the script. I am reminded of the horrible and the good situations in the temporal world that otherwise from which I live protected-- insulated in my quiet and solitary, privileged life. These can put me to much-needed sleep, also, a practical gift; but also can falling asleep in quietude, considering His Real Presence here in me, and me in Him,
I've not read much of Eckhart (have a volume or two here of his writings and life), but I gathered from Payne that he may have been progressed through the temporal church passageway. Actually, many, including Julian of Norwich, seem to have been progressed by His Real Presence through that passageway. She likely has not been canonized for her use of "Mother" to describe God, at times. I don't know, but it was refreshing to read that John of the Cross was banished, which hastened his death, because he courageously stood up and spoke against Doria and in favor of Gracian (hope I have the names right), as Gracian was desirous of seeking and learning to live and love God's Law of Love over the laws of humankind, even the humankind laws and orthodoxy of the temporal Church. (Yes there is His Real Presence in the temporal Church, but there is so much other clutter accumulated over the centuries that His Mystical Church is worth awareness, seeking, and allowing myself to be led there, to exist and worship and participate within His eternal Church: Christ as Head and we His beloved and loving followers, His Body.)
I realize God plucked me out, in essence, and the other day I had the Scripture of "He passed through their midst." That has always been a signal from God, when this Scripture comes up in the Mass readings, that there is a situation in which I, too, must accept passing through. I'm letting it drop now, and fully willing for His Real Presence to lead and progress me through this current passageway, which I was shown as a stairway and told was the stairway to heaven. Just have to embrace it in faith, and drop the guilt that I held regarding the temporal sense of rejection or failing in the temporal Church!
There is also that dying to self--the annihilation--that goes with something like this, that God chose to not utilize me within the temporal Church, which was a foolish and arrogant thought! Rather, I'm in the world here on my bed, need to do some manual labor at some point when well enough and not writing these thoughts, and recognize the excitement and love of which God is providing in what is not tangible!
And of my part in learning to love as God loves--not just learning but then enacting in whatever ways, of which I caught myself this morning getting bent-out over a poorly done countertop install in two places. I am striving to handle it, to resolve it, through God's love which is firm, truthful, yet kind and merciful. I'm Jesus' "gopher" beloved; He's not needed to be physically here as Spouse to make countertop workers do what they'd maybe not try to get by with if a man in the house (and I realize this can depend on the man's personality); yet Jesus IS here--but has me do the practicing of what He wills and how He'd handle the problem if He were physically visible. With God's Law of Love which Jesus fulfilled and which supersedes all other laws--it is so profoundly God's opus of law!
Well, just thoughts, but I'm done with the labels and how they've become confused and interchanged one with each other, and how foolish the trend of people wanting to be mystics without realizing the misinformation. I guess in the urban vernacular of today, then: "Go knock yourselves out". None of us can become what is not feasible without God's choosing. We cannot force God's hand, any more than someone born afflicted with cerebral palsy can be otherwise, nor can someone born a mystic be otherwise, nor can someone born with leadership gifts or great scholarly minds and with whatever other--we are what God wills at birth. Some can be altered but some types cannot.
A mystic cannot even get rid of being a mystic. A mystic cannot stop a mystical experience or message and also cannot make one happen or get God to provide one. (I realize that anyone can turn against God, but that simply is not in a mystic's born nature. God can do anything, though; God could create someone on earth into a mystic, or remove the mystic in a born mystic but why--other than if the born mystic turns to the devil irrevocably.)
But we all can become contemplatives, even mystics can become contemplatives. I don't think it comes automatically--contemplation; contemplation is not a given for a mystic but perhaps some might be given a foot-up, so to speak as the inborn disposition tends that way. Maybe?
I'm not really good at contemplating. Too much bodily pain, it seems, to be so still in preparation, or to focus my mind per the suggestions St. Theresa mentions. Nor have I had the signal of unitive phase, such as meeting in vision the Three Persons of the Trinity--not that I know of consciously, and I'd think something like that would be etched also in the conscious.
However, I don't care about the mystical experiences or signs that designated the developed phases mentioned and experienced by John and Theresa and others, for in faith and as a reality, I know the Trinity is in me, His Real Presence is in me, and I am in Him. Why do I then need some phenomenon to prove it? Only if God for some reason would need it for others, would it seem necessary--but not for myself at this point. And I'd never bother His Real Presence to use His energy and His power and might to show me in a numinous way, what I know in my mind and heart and soul. Seems kind of preposterous and rude if I'd ask for what is of Him already in me and me in Him.
I find now that a message or dream or vision will come IF I am totally needing it or am not catching on, not paying attention, caught up in too much self or pity or temporal crud. In a way, I feel kinda bad because it simply means I was not available to see it or hear it or be aware otherwise.
And if this that I have come to feel and think and share with you and a few blog readers is not correct or pleasing to God, then I will remain at the base of the stairway until I grasp where I'm erring, and at some point He will progress me either while my body is temporal or when it is no longer. As is said, "Life goes on." Not temporal life, though; the temporal is passing away, including will the temporal of temporal Church; and that passing away is more when we recognize and pass from the temporal aspects created by humankind, and instead focusing on His Real Presence, His Living Word, being in Him and Him in us, and as we learn to love and live God's law of Love increasingly, to greater measure.
Love in His Love, and God Bless His Real Presence in us!
Your friend in His Real Presence,
Long addendum for readers and myself, not part of the correspondence:
[I also consider Therese of Lisiuex a great and swift-rising contemplative, but not a mystic. People of all types can have a spiritual or even mystical experience or more, but there are other factors and determinants. Writers and scholars of the topic frequently interchange mystical marriage and spiritual marriage and in other instances, also. It is not documented anywhere that I've found nor in scholarly research, nor in the writings of the mystics themselves that they suddenly or even gradually became a mystic,
Mystics are chosen this by God prior to birth and agree, or accept this as God's will, However, not all mystics show signs when infants or very young but some do, such as John of the Cross, Padre Pio and others. Most it seems have phases in which they become self-aware of being different, and that others do not perceive or experience spiritually or in the numinous as they have experienced, even going back to earliest memory but not having external indications that others note. However, parents and siblings and relatives and friends grow up with the mystic and often have assimilated the aspect of something different or a religious or spiritual propensity the child mystic or teen or young adult mystic has about them.
Spouses can notice and if not spiritual themselves, can be bothered by it or consider it to be a touch of being "psychic." Sadly, some born mystics veer off, unaccepted and feeling stilted by the temporal Church (does not have to be Catholic, can be any Christian church) or who do not understand the passageways that they nay be led to; they end up going more off into New Age practices or as spirit guides, mediums, and so forth. Some are very well-intentioned and some have relationship with God, but they tend not to bring that into their "psychic" readings.
Of these, I have concerns that while some are loving people and often were Catholics but left the church or were not welcome, persecuted, or misunderstood, they can be pawns of the evil one, to put it in that terminology. They might seem accurate, but the base would be for me, quite alarming. Christian mystics seem not not utilized by God to be paid mediums or paid dream interpreters, nor to go into self-induced or other induced trances to contact loved ones. It seems from what I've read , those with clairvoyant gifts have aspects shown them that they might report to police if crimes committed; I assume in most instances they are shown by God, not by the devil, but that's an entire area that I suppose comes under supernatural ethics!
Those who claim that certain canonized saints who have all the markers for being mystics somehow became mystics at some point in temporal time by their doing or God deciding He was going to make so-and-so a mystic, have not read enough of valid and detailed writings and letters of the persons or other valid anecdotal evidence. This is in part why I have never considered Therese of Lisieux or St Paul for that matter, to be mystics. However they were great contemplatives and had experiences spiritual and even mystical, and their closeness and awareness of being in His Real Presence and His Real Presence in them, plus miraculous occurrences while alive--of which miracles are from God through the Holy Spirit through the person.
This still does not make them mystics. We simply confuse the terms mystic and contemplative one with the other; and scholars do it, as well, I know in my own writing I may have done it in terms, especially, or early on. I myself did not face my situation until I was older; prior I just considered that I had psychic tendencies for I was unaware of the term mystic nor had read of any, being Protestant. Yet I became aware when a Protestant, but it was in a period of major opening up and much mystical activity or experiences of which I had no labels to use, nor ways to handle such matters which were escalating, if you will, including then slap backs from the devil and his legion.
That is about the time that God led me increasingly to the Catholic Church; I am so thankful to His Real Presence and will in this life be a Catholic, of course! Nothing changes in that simply because one is progressed by God through one passage and onto another. I am now considering other mystics in the Church who had this type of transition, and those who had it but yet remained outwardly or in writings careful to consider the hierarchy as the guide to matters religious. John of the Cross had that situation, and in regard to his progression by God, and the amount of temporal internal persecution, he chose what some scholars fault as a rather foolish, blind obedience to his superiors.
I do not take that view; I consider that John did as God willed of Him, and much good came of the persecutions, the incarceration, nearly starved him to death, beat him, and eventually after a miraculous escape but a guard used by God and other tangibles to effectuate his escape, a superior banished him to one of their foundations in which he was again mistreated but by then his health ruined so that to John's delight, his temporal death was hastened. He already had climbed "the stairway to Heaven" having passed through the other passageway, his writings other than invaluable letters that were burned in fear of trials and deaths if the persons were found with them, and some burned by John himself because he feared he was too attached to what Theresa had written to him.
John of the Cross was past-due ready, himself in yearning, and God provided the means for him to pass from this temporal earth to heaven on Dec. 14, 1581 I think the year; but I know he was only 49. Many of the mystics early on went literally to the desert or deep into forests or up on the mountains; they had spiritually as well as physically passed through the temporal Church, and they continued on in the passageways God progressed them to and through, without the persecutions of and in the temporal Church. Of course they had other hardships, temporal, and spiritually such as trials with the devil.
Others were removed by God out of God's will and their desire to flee awful situations with superiors such as a bishop in Cologne who had it out for St. Bruno, so he waited for a good time to leave and six companions or maybe five and he was the sixth, left quietly and made their way to France where they over-wintered in a Benedictine monastery, but realized that had the temporal elements and a type of hierarchy of which they had passed through already. Come early spring they ventured on to the farthest reaches of the French Alps and lived there as hermits but in separate dwellings. I'm sure that did not happen quickly, of course.
And Bruno never wanted a religious order to be developed,and himself never wrote statutes although Guigo I pressed him. But after Bruno died, in another start up of based on Bruno's charterhouse and hermit type model, in Italy. Bruno did concede to go and assist the pope at that time, as word spread of Bruno's advances in spiritual life as well as his brilliance and wisdom, but it was not because Bruno wanted to leave what is now called Le Grand Chartruese. He did so because God willed he go, and from there he was by then advanced in years and unwell from the harsh winter conditions in the French Alps, that he went to this start up model in Italy with warmer weather, and there died.
After his death Guigo did what Bruno did not want, and wrote statutes, got them approved by the pope, and the Carthusian Order came into being and remains today, although in diminishing numbers. I'm not sure if Bruno would have remained or joined if it were after it became "organized" and an approved religious order in the temporal Church; perhaps he'd instead since I am feel it that when he left Cologne God had or was progressing him through the temporal passageway, and being in the Beneditine monastery that winter, Bruno knew to go onward and somewhat literally ascended a mountainous "stairway" as also on the next passageway, the stairway to heaven.
As for myself, God had to deal with me with setting up obstacles and repeated closed doors, in effect. Then more physical limitations and then I was given the faith and sense to let go and accept the visions and locutions that were specific even if a few years past! I don't need to go anywhere; I'm hidden away where I am. No one is coming by wanting me to be in the temporal Church, nor did anyone follow up on me, which is God's gracious will! However, I've had two young women, Mormon missionaries who came twice, doing all manner of obvious persuasions to try to win me for their church or ward, as they call, I think, the neighborhood centers in which they gather to pray and sing and hear sermons and read from their Pearl of Great Price and Book of Mormon, of which I won't go into all that as it has been years since I read them and studied their church beliefs, rules, laws, rituals and traditions....
I think the girls understood after their second visit that I'm not going to be or join other, and I suggested we pray for one another, and so forth. I won't go into the LDS or Mormon beliefs or how that movement started and became a "church." There is much more to that situation, but I'm not wanting to spend time sharing it. Nothing anyone really needs nor I need to review mentally or in writing.
To sum up, people can say and write and try what they want. I don't write here from a basis of ignorance or not having knowledge of and experience of mystics, being born one--one of insignificance in the world or to the church. I will never be of any outer significance to the temporal Church. God is utilizing me in other ways, of which I'm coming to respect and appreciate--and maybe as importantly, to accept. Suffering which is being utilized by His Real Presence in reparation for the ills of the temporal Church is one--and also, always, for my own ills and flaws--sins!
Note: I write what I know or lived or studied or learned or sense or have insights at the time and from past; as always, accept or not, take it or leave it. My hope and prayer is that readers will consider their own lives, their relationship with His Real Presence, pray and many already know what God wills of them, and live and love God's Law to the full! Some may be mystics and have a different experience or take on matters; that is okay. None of it really matters as trends will go as they go, and words and labels will be used as they will, and theories will be bandied about, written, and most people will never think on such matters. We go on living our lives in His Real Presence, praying and praising God, learning to love God above all else and love others and self as God loves.
We follow His Real Presence with the time on earth He gives us, some more aware and accepting and see His plan than others (myself one of those who is slow). It does not matter who of canonized saints were or were not mystics on earth, other than for those of us who are helped by knowing and learning form their usually painful temporal lives but blessed spiritual lives. It does not matter who is a mystic now other than perhaps the mystic him or herself of which knowing helps with acceptance of God's will and mission for the mystic, if more in the church and world or if hidden and praying and suffering; they all, everyone who desires in fact, can and is spiritually progressing through passageways, led and ordained by God, all of it. The devil pops in and out, but God has power over the devil; is experience and practice and learning for us in dealing with evil and the reality of the evil one and those he inhabits on earth--allowed by them, of course.
Mercy, this is LONG! I am sick still with sinus infection, into the sixth week with nothing seeming to work to finish it off, although a second zpack moved it a bit more in better direction. So figure do some writing which helps me sort through and maybe helps others. Even the person who disagrees and writes of such as this matter of which then I very much disagree with what the person put outs there, particularly on a topic of which I personally have some experience and knowledge, but then it is actually very good, and evidently what God wants of me for now. When i'm able to do manual labor and pray therin, and take the pup for walks, and pray more, I tend not to write as much, nor do I notice what the other person writes. I don't know other than must have been a nudge from Holy Spirit or my angel who is directed by the Holy Spirit, to even notice and read the person's writing of the past couple of days or so.
So we disagree; so what? If the person is is convinced he/she can become a mystic, or anyone else who wants it: Go for it. (Being a mystic is highly overrated, and this from a mystic, and to use another well-worn statement.) Maybe the person thinks God will say, "Hey, I think I'll make him or her a mystic." And maybe God will say that or do it. We never know. Personally, I'd never ask for other than God's will. I still say it (mystic) like being born with an affliction for the temporal life given by God, and willed by Him, and that prior I agreed to His will, for He does not force things upon us. And I'm not saying its awful, for this is what God has willed for me and some others, for various of God's purposes and missions while in our temporal lives. Concurrently, we can strive in the contemplative way, the three ways of the spiritual life as it is called, and if we come to the unitive phase, then all is up to God as far as any of the reported numinous, religious experiences that may or may not happen. And that does not matter, either. It's not the smoke that matters; it's the hidden fire burning within that one ought build and light with God's guidance and help.
Wow--this is my epic-longest blog post ever. Apologies to anyone who suffered through to the current end,
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